Michigan Amateur Open 2016
PDGA A-tier · Sat-Sun, Jul 30-31, 2016Jul 2016 · Holly, MI
The great MAO scoring controversy of 2016. I am keeping it transparent so the haters won't call out club love. I have sent the following to the PDGA rules committee and tour manager to get a ruling on ...
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The great MAO scoring controversy of 2016. I am keeping it transparent so the haters won't call out club love. I have sent the following to the PDGA rules committee and tour manager to get a ruling on the scorecard issue that has everyone talking. So I am leaving it in their hands....
I ran Michigan Amateur open this weekend. We had a scoring issue on one card. Players a,b,c, and d turn in their scorecard. The scorecard is reviewed by the tournament officials and all of the scores are correct. After the scores have been verified players a and b report to me(the TD) that player b had a 4 on one hole that was written down as a 3. Whats is the ruling on this?
1. Should the scores just be left as the card was initially turned in and no penalty strokes assessed?Thus leaving player b with 1 stroke better than he actually shot
2. The card be updated to reflect that player b had a 4 instead of a 3 and one stroke added to his score
3. The card be updated to reflect that player b had a 4 and one stroke added to his score plus a 2 stroke penalty for incorrect score turned in
It is concerning to me because player A did not point out the scoring error to the group before the card was turned in. And then after the scorecard was turned in then alerted the TD
My last question is after getting a ruling from you (the PDGA) can I go and change the scores from this past weekend.
Regards,
Paul Grasso
Aug 1, 2016
I ran Michigan Amateur open this weekend. We had a scoring issue on one card. Players a,b,c, and d turn in their scorecard. The scorecard is reviewed by the tournament officials and all of the scores are correct. After the scores have been verified players a and b report to me(the TD) that player b had a 4 on one hole that was written down as a 3. Whats is the ruling on this?
1. Should the scores just be left as the card was initially turned in and no penalty strokes assessed?Thus leaving player b with 1 stroke better than he actually shot
2. The card be updated to reflect that player b had a 4 instead of a 3 and one stroke added to his score
3. The card be updated to reflect that player b had a 4 and one stroke added to his score plus a 2 stroke penalty for incorrect score turned in
It is concerning to me because player A did not point out the scoring error to the group before the card was turned in. And then after the scorecard was turned in then alerted the TD
My last question is after getting a ruling from you (the PDGA) can I go and change the scores from this past weekend.
Regards,
Paul Grasso
show 43 earlier comments
Paul Grasso
Aug 1, 2016
I'm sure lots of you will weigh in on this but the only opinion I am concerned about is the PDGA's
Mark Stephens
Aug 1, 2016
And I will only weigh in that I was asked not knowing at all who was involved, only the situation, a ...
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And I will only weigh in that I was asked not knowing at all who was involved, only the situation, and I gave my opinion. I was in the middle of doing something at that moment and having looked at the rule in its entirety afterwards, I think that my opinion at the time was an incorrect one. If that swayed Paul into taking a position that was the incorrect ruling, I apologize greatly to all the players involved and the tournament staff.
Steve Nolff
Aug 1, 2016
The better question is, how does a card allow this to happen. All members of the card equally share ...
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The better question is, how does a card allow this to happen. All members of the card equally share scorekeeping duties. At the tee of each hole, the scorekeeper announces what hole he is scoring, reads the names in the order on the scorecard and documents the response. At the end of the round, perferrably at the last hole's basket, all card members sit and add the scores. All agree and it is the responsibility of all members to turn the agreed on scorecard in. I do not know what could happen to cause this nearly perfect, nearly universally accepted, practice to fail. The PDGA will sort this out. The PDGA rules are often only guidelines and TD's are the ones facing the inevitable myiad of grey areas and extenuating circumstances in every rules issue. All players involved should defend their postion, then respect the TD's (ultimately the PDGA's ruling), especially in light of what seems to be a widespread disregard for a proven and effect process to prevent such issues. Lesson for all of us.....be factitious in scoring and ensure all of your group is on board with the scores. I also find keeping my own score on a separate scorecard as a valuable tool when there are disputes when adding up a card at the last hole.
Amateur Hour
Aug 1, 2016
Where your logic is flawed, the player cheats for a better score...
Steve Nolff
Aug 1, 2016
Cheating...if proven (proveable) should be handled at the time of adding the score at the last hole. ...
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Cheating...if proven (proveable) should be handled at the time of adding the score at the last hole. If not able to resolve this, it is then turned over to the TD before the card is turned in. It sound like you were involved K T, I hope the outcome is satisfactory and fair.
Mark Stephens
Aug 1, 2016
As it was later explained to me, scores were a accidentally inverted on the hole with a lightning de ...
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As it was later explained to me, scores were a accidentally inverted on the hole with a lightning delay. When scores were added, one of the two scores was corrected, the other was not as they had not realized they were inverted while taking the scores down. Now, was that how it all went down, maybe? That is what I was directly told by an involved payer.
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 1, 2016
@steven. I'll help clear a few things up as I was on this card. And I was the one that pointed this ...
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@steven. I'll help clear a few things up as I was on this card. And I was the one that pointed this all out. At the start of the round. Player C had the card to start. Not player A Player C kept scores whole round. After every hole. Player C asked everyone there score as well as calling out his own. A lightning delay happened as we finished a hole. My self was not asked what I took on hole and I'm assuming. No one else was either. Play resumed and finished. When finished. Scores were counted by player C Player D. Which was a different division playing on our card as a no show happened. Had a card of his own and was keeping his score on every hole. Mind u. I payed attn to what everyone was doing every hole. And the issue came on the delay hole. In which player A took a 3. Player B took a 4. Player C took a 4. Player D took a 3. But written down as player C took a 3. And player D took a 4. When I counted scores player d came up with his card asking to see and compair his scores to what he had. In which both of us looked it over. And noticed the error. In which player C was told. The score on this whole
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 1, 2016
Hole was wrong. And recounted what had happened. As well as player D. It was admitted that i ...
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Hole was wrong. And recounted what had happened. As well as player D. It was admitted that it was wrong and said it would be changed. I handed card back for them to infact change there own scores. As it's not mine to adjust. I was told and left under the impression it was fixed. The card was turned in. Later noticing the score which was wrong was left and turned it. I confronted TD about the matter. Explained what had happened. And was told to get my card to discuss. Player C came. We talked and admitted. In which at the time. The score was changed one stoke and left at what we have now. I'm sorry for the headache that it has caused as I tried to have it taken care of before card was turned in.
John Minicuci
Aug 1, 2016
Regardless of the outcome, which many of us would like to know the PDGA's ruling, your stand-up honesty Paul is greatly appreciated. The big Q is do the extra 2 strokes get added or no?
Mark Stephens
Aug 1, 2016
Thanks John McClanahan. It is aways helpful to get more than one perspective of what happened.
Mark Stephens
Aug 1, 2016
And I also want to say, I would agree with your stance that it was not your score to change and I am glad that you didn't. That can case issues as well. The player is responsible for their score.
Shaun Adkins
Aug 1, 2016
Fuck transparency. I asked mize for answers.
John Minicuci
Aug 1, 2016
Solid choice Shaun
Shaun Adkins
Aug 1, 2016
He deleted my comments. I think I have my answer.
Kenneth Mize
Aug 1, 2016
So during the rain delay we rushed in, scores were recorded on the move quickly switching up persons ...
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So during the rain delay we rushed in, scores were recorded on the move quickly switching up persons names with their correct line. Player rob and myself had the score switch. During add up rob announced he took a 3 not a 4 on a hole so we fixed it. (At the time we didn't know about the mess up of the score switch) so we added up em and my score was 81. When I turned it in I looked back at my round counting holes and such cuz 81 is a pretty bad round for me. When I counted 82 (counted the bogeys and birdies) I double checked, even went to check my scorecard and realized what happen. Went to John to ask him about it and when i saw John talking to Paul so I went up there and said what happened and we fixed it. The only reason the score card was found incorrect is because I told on myself when I realized I was given one less stroke. I honestly didn't think it was that big of a deal. There was never a discussion of my score during the round or after the scores were totaled. I was given the score card by player A and asked if anyone objected because player a didn't have the rain gear for score keeping.
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 1, 2016
I'm not here to bash or start issues. I did bring it up to u when we totaled card before handing ...
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I'm not here to bash or start issues. I did bring it up to u when we totaled card before handing it in and told u. Yours and the others were flip flopped. U did acknolage and said would be changed. Which lead me to believe it did. As to y I asked Paul after the score was wrote down that lead to this mess.
Amateur Hour
Aug 1, 2016
Uh-oh....
Paul Grasso
Aug 1, 2016
It’s an incorrect hole score (and total) so the player receives the correct score plus two penalty ...
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It’s an incorrect hole score (and total) so the player receives the correct score plus two penalty throws and you should correct it. Player A may have been underhanded about it but there is no way to prove that and it was player B’s responsibility to make sure it was correct before being turned in anyway. Andrew “Big Dog” Sweeton Tour Manager Professional Disc Golf Association
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 1, 2016
My only issue with it all was. I said something before it was turned it. Asked to be corrected. ...
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My only issue with it all was. I said something before it was turned it. Asked to be corrected. And it infact was partly corrected. Am I saying hey ur a cheater or shaving strokes? No. Simply put a hole was wrong. Asked to be corrected. And it wasn't. Long story short. As to I'm under then impression. Wrong score turned it and willing admitting it. Should have been corrected with 2 strokes. I wasn't pushing them to dnf u. Nothing of that nature. Other scores were wrong Bc of counting errors. They were all
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 1, 2016
Stroked. So a scoring error. Should have been the same with the admition. IMO
Paul Grasso
Aug 1, 2016
since I knew about the infraction before completion of the tournament the scores are now adjusted
Shaun Adkins
Aug 1, 2016
You are just speaking the truth, John. If it walks, talks and acts like a duck. It's probably a duck.
Nicholas George Fucinari
Aug 1, 2016
ohhh my
Kenneth Mize
Aug 1, 2016
There was only knowledge of player robs score otherwise I would've fixed it then. I accepted the str ...
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There was only knowledge of player robs score otherwise I would've fixed it then. I accepted the stroke and i accepted my mistake. if it hurts my character because I made a rushing over mistake then so be it. But hell what do I know, make one mistake and someone's butt hurt about getting beat so they blow it out of proportion which by the time of day 2 sounds like it was blown out pretty bad as I had to set the story straight about 75 times.. I was never hiding from anyone, yet after the incident the player who blew it out of proportion was the one not willing to talk. who actually was there. Only one person in this thread was actually involved. (besides Grasso and mark). I could've just ignored the mistake that I realized but I was proactive in fixing it and told Grasso myself. And told him to add the scoring stroke. The interesting thing is the fact that people are so interested in something they werent even at an event for. But Shaun you're right if it loses salty plays salty and acts salty it must be salt.
Amateur Hour
Aug 1, 2016
It is in everyone's interest if someone is suspected of cheating...
Kenneth Mize
Aug 1, 2016
Someone who tells on themselve and give himself a stroke sounds like a cheater.... Wait a second...
Amateur Hour
Aug 1, 2016
You didn't get stroked until an hour ago.
Shaun Adkins
Aug 1, 2016
I guess I do make things palatable. Why did John have to say something about it twice????
Shaun Adkins
Aug 1, 2016
Telling on yourself occurs when you do something wrong and no one else knows about it. When other people know you are just trying to make yourself look good.
- br33zy -
Aug 1, 2016
If you don't correct a score after it being acknowledged, then you didn't admit to shit. Sorry you feel bad that you got called out to the community. Pencil whipping is everyone's business.
Paul Grasso
Aug 1, 2016
John, thank you for your input. I don't think there was foul play intended by anyone . I bounced thi ...
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John, thank you for your input. I don't think there was foul play intended by anyone . I bounced this scenario of 2 experienced TDs at the time it happened and we were all a little befuddled. So I wanted to send it up to the pdga for a ruling, my only regret is not doing it Saturday night.
Mark Stephens
Aug 1, 2016
As I told you on the phone, you may or may not have got a response. It would be GREAT if the PDGA h ...
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As I told you on the phone, you may or may not have got a response. It would be GREAT if the PDGA had a number or email that was staffed on the weekends as that is when 99.9% of when all tournaments take place...
Shaun Adkins
Aug 1, 2016
Mistakes do happen but this one sounds deliberate. I could be wrong but I try really hard not to be. I like being right too much to let it happen often.
Kenneth Mize
Aug 1, 2016
It was a mistake Shaun it was addressed with Paul by myself and John, I told him I took a 4, and tha ...
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It was a mistake Shaun it was addressed with Paul by myself and John, I told him I took a 4, and that's what happened, scores were adjusted and they were fixed properly. Pdga was notified today I recorded a 2 stroke penalty for my mistake. The FTF is a stand up tournament staff and they handled it to the best of their ability at the time. The mistake of the switch was my fault and if it was brought to my attention prior I would've fixed it then. This was the case and that's all I can say, I'm not going to keep trying to say what happened all day long and this become a dgs war of people who weren't even there. but this is the end of me commenting. Shaun ask yourself in 6 years of knowing me you ever heard of me doing anything during a tournament besides beating you ;) Jkjk but seriously brush come on now
John "Santa" Herman
Aug 1, 2016
Thanks Paul, greatly appreciate the way you are handling this, ensuring the rules are followed and that everyone concerned is aware. Great job! Look forward to next year!
John Minicuci
Aug 1, 2016
Just my opinion since I also did not give the two-stroke penalty advice, I would never walked off th ...
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Just my opinion since I also did not give the two-stroke penalty advice, I would never walked off the course anticipating someone to change the scorecard on their own without somebody watching them do it. All disputes should be handled on the course before the score card is turned in and with at least two people verifying the score was correct. If you come up to the tournament director after it's over and questioned it because you didn't watch only escalates the issue into a long thread like this. If it was handled on the course none of this would be an issue end of discussion.
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 1, 2016
John I agree. I should have. But we also have to trust other players to follow the rules we play by ...
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John I agree. I should have. But we also have to trust other players to follow the rules we play by. I gave him the benifit as I was told it would be corrected. But I can't hold a gun to someone's head waiting for them to correct it.
Amateur Hour
Aug 2, 2016
Again John Minicuci, sounds great in theory, but where the flaw is someone who deliberately doesn't follow through is where the problem lies.
Amateur Hour
Aug 2, 2016
I wasn't there Kenneth, but someone who was, I consider to be the most honest person I know, and trust his opinion on all things disc golf, especially rules of disc golf.
Nicholas George Fucinari
Aug 2, 2016
Boffs
brent moreno
Aug 2, 2016
If you aint cheatung you aint trying lmao jj!!!
Rob Dahmen
Aug 5, 2016
I know this is way after the fact but I just now noticed this conversation was going on. I am the p ...
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I know this is way after the fact but I just now noticed this conversation was going on. I am the player whose score WAS adjusted at the end of the round when I noticed the recorded score for that hole was incorrect. John was also looking over the card with me and confirmed to Kenny (the scorekeeper) that I did get a 3. He also checked his own score for that hole confirmed it was correct. I then say Kenny adjust the scorecard and once again confirm what my total should be for the round. I do NOT recall the scores for the other 2 players (Matt & Kenny) being reviewed or discussed at all, but to be honest I was only focused on my score being corrected.
Amateur Hour
Aug 5, 2016
Uh-oh
Kenneth Mize
Aug 5, 2016
Thank you rob for your version of the events.
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 5, 2016
Like he said. Doesn't recall the score of the others. Just worried about his own being right. Isd
John "Johnny Mac" McClenahan
Aug 5, 2016
With that said. It was admitted and I hope we all past this honest mistake.
