MICPS Summer 2010 Grand Finale

Scott White    October 15, 2010 at 9:12pm

We are going to play the Picnic Course. It's being installed for this weekend only.

Jeff Kaluk    October 15, 2010 at 9:10pm

what are we playing, longs or mids?

Robert Shaffer    October 6, 2010 at 5:05am

So don't think I'm going to be able to make it so can I sell my spot or get a refund???? Please advise

Robert Shaffer    October 6, 2010 at 5:05am

So don't think I'm going to be able to make it so can I sell my spot or get a refund???? Please advise

Jeff Kaluk    October 2, 2010 at 10:03pm

Adding a ton of stuff for CTP this week. Clearwater, Holdens, Mucker, Kurt Maty, Kensington and more donating. The grave is still up for grabs. More than 1 spot will pay out. Entry to the point series final also.

Curt McGill    October 1, 2010 at 7:26am

Well I've been entertained reading all the different opinions and ideas posted this week lots of good stuff. For me the series and the HLW was an excuse to go play leagues at courses I otherwise may have never played, I tryed to play leagues at least twice a week. Never played leagues at all till last October. the series really got me into it. I used it to compare myself to the people who play leagues at our local courses and am still trying to stay in the top 50 we average about 20 per ... more

Well I've been entertained reading all the different opinions and ideas posted this week lots of good stuff. For me the series and the HLW was an excuse to go play leagues at courses I otherwise may have never played, I tryed to play leagues at least twice a week. Never played leagues at all till last October. the series really got me into it. I used it to compare myself to the people who play leagues at our local courses and am still trying to stay in the top 50 we average about 20 per week at St Charles so I didn't worry that some clubs have 50 or more players per week and had more points available thats all good! I met a lot of fellow golfers and made a bunch of new friends.Thanks for a great job Foz, Pete, and Scott.
I would like to be able to compare some different stats.. like most league wins at different courses( one for each different course win). Most total league wins. Most points with fewest leagues played. Most total leagues played. When you check your player status you could view this info and it would allow you to make comparisons to others. Players with the highest numbers could have an asterisk or other symbol that would indicate they were leading that particular category I don't know if this could be done without to much extra effort but I've heard Pete is a wizard :).Thats some of my input looking forward to the Winter series the SVCS will be having a Doubles league followed by a Singles league every Saturday throughout the winter good chance for points hoping to see some new faces, we keep the pads cleared and salted so come on out! Thanks again!

Justin Roggero    October 1, 2010 at 12:03am

The thing is foz and im speaking to you ot as a director but just another golfer as you asked. i wouldnt call it a personell failure because you missed one league around across the state. like you said life happens. I had many trips "planned " to go play league rounds over on the east. ive made some pretty good friends through the tournaments ive played this year, its funny how easy it was to spark up a conversation about the point series just by throwing my whitehall disc golf marker ... more

The thing is foz and im speaking to you ot as a director but just another golfer as you asked. i wouldnt call it a personell failure because you missed one league around across the state. like you said life happens. I had many trips "planned " to go play league rounds over on the east. ive made some pretty good friends through the tournaments ive played this year, its funny how easy it was to spark up a conversation about the point series just by throwing my whitehall disc golf marker, the series is a great idea with flaws here and there but its expected/anticipated , with any orginization with members pushing towards the thousands , what would make it worth it for me personally is like ellis said on the gradfinale wall make it two seperate prizes the tourney itself just like the state championship and the points to award someoe for getting out there and doing well , the co op is a great idea and i will continue to participate in it and its discussions , the **** talking is going to happen but again thank you foz for doing everything you and the rest of the administrators have done for michigan golf , its greatly appreciated

g lane    September 30, 2010 at 10:40pm

didnt read

Foz Miller    September 30, 2010 at 10:31pm

I like it Mark. Your idea and the Regional Semi Finals idea seem like great ideas that may help increase participation at the end - these and others ideas are all being discussed now by many - This forum (DGS) is awesome - especially when users approach it in a cooperative manner ;-)

Foz Miller    September 30, 2010 at 10:24pm

I should also say that when I post in any Talk are I am posting my personal views like anyone else and not necessarily the views of the Disc Golf League Association, DGLA or the Point Series. All posts help everyone see different views and get exposed to different ideas. In the League Coordinator Cooperation Group we discuss matters related to those who selflessly donate their time to make this PS and leagues in general a reality to all the league players and all this goes to the DGLA board fo ... more

I should also say that when I post in any Talk are I am posting my personal views like anyone else and not necessarily the views of the Disc Golf League Association, DGLA or the Point Series. All posts help everyone see different views and get exposed to different ideas. In the League Coordinator Cooperation Group we discuss matters related to those who selflessly donate their time to make this PS and leagues in general a reality to all the league players and all this goes to the DGLA board for final direction. Scott does a great job representing the Tournament players as well as league players and coordinators. Pete helps us with how DGS can help and continue to improve on all this. Here I'm just one of the 777 current members of the PS who cares to express my views so others can agree, or provide other insights and new cool ideas to help us all find a way to put smiles on everyone's face.

I saw Justin Roggero post earlier - "the whole driving across the state for a doubles round sounds ludicrous" - but this happened this summer for just double points and for just regular points. It happened even before the point series but I think the stats will show that it happened a bit more with just a little incentive. The idea to get a bunch of players to do this at one time and one place has more challenges but if the motivation was high enough it would happen. You mention this is not the State Championship - well there really is not much difference and with a few improvements this is more like a true state championship as players competed all session long and then come together and compete head to head. From my perspective it's better as it offers more - if you like the competition you have it and if you like the league aspects of less pressure and more fun in a more casual environment than many more can achieve this.

The question is what is the motivation - and we see that many have different views of what that is - we just need to improve on all these aspects - for the ones who focus on competition - fairer completion - Large leagues versus small and different formats. For those who like the "Blast" casual aspects - a big enough incentive to make the drive, and commitment of time and money. An event can have 4-8 times more in this category and a $1 from each of these players really makes they payouts more attractive to the ones focused on the payouts or competition.

So I am very interested in what would make "You" ( all involved or interested in getting involved in a PS) travel and participate? What does an event have to have to make it worth wild for you? If we want most of the 777 we need to know what everyone desires and look to try get all of those ideas into one system to maximize the turn out.

Maybe many are not interested in being a part of a giant Disc Golf outing. States gives us some example of what it is like but Worlds is even a better example of what could be done. When there are hundreds of people gathered together all focused on Disc Golf it is an amazing time. I recall hundred at the Final day at Worlds 2008 all at the ski slope where the event was going on. A huge crowd down by the lodge and many groups following specific groups of players. Some people sitting on the hill side just hanging out and watching while others played. It was an amazing feeling just to be a part of the whole event - That is my view and as someone who has struggled to try and meet the payout desires of the competitive players and try dealing with sponsorship there is a big advantage in achieving that large crowd. Otherwise we are just redistributing the money from those 70-80% of the players to the 10-30% and that does not seem to make anyone happy.

The East / West smack is going to continue with a few - many are competitive or they just love smack - we need to learn how to harness that as well as keep it within acceptable limits.

Also Justin - My biggest personal failure this summer was that I did not make it to Whithall to play a league round there. I had a dream of playing every HLW as a way of getting to more Michigan courses and to see first hand how leagues ran at these courses. Life happened and I fell short but based on the discussions early on (East/West) I had said to myself that I wanted to at least get to Whitehall for a league round sometime this summer -Failed. But I did manage to get to several new leagues and courses and it was the HLW that helped motivate me and give some direction to my planning of when and where within limits of my life ;-)

Hope to get to Whithall soon and thanks for your input.

Pete Crist    September 30, 2010 at 10:11pm

That's a really cool idea, Mark.

mark ellis    September 30, 2010 at 10:08pm

Just tossing out an idea...

The MICPS could crown two champions each year. One for the points leader, one for the Grand Finale Tournament winner. Professional Hockey does this. One team gets a trophy for most points ( best regular season record) and one trophy for the Playoffs (the Stanley Cup). So one player could be crowned State League Points Champ while another could be crowned State League Playoff Champ, (unless one player won both).

The motivation behind this idea is attract play ... more

Just tossing out an idea...

The MICPS could crown two champions each year. One for the points leader, one for the Grand Finale Tournament winner. Professional Hockey does this. One team gets a trophy for most points ( best regular season record) and one trophy for the Playoffs (the Stanley Cup). So one player could be crowned State League Points Champ while another could be crowned State League Playoff Champ, (unless one player won both).

The motivation behind this idea is attract players to the Finals. Because some good players play so many league rounds at well attended leagues, a handful of those players are beyond the reach of a players from less populace areas of the State, even if they were equally skilled. But if the Finals were a more wide open opportunity it might draw more geographically diverse interest.

Since we want to continue to encourage league participation, The Finals could work with this formula. Each player starts with their ranking in points ( points leader gets 1 point, 100th place in points gets 100 points). Following the Finale each player gets points equal to their tournament finish ( 1st place gets 1 point, 10th place gets 10 points). Add the two categories together and lowest score is the League Playoff Champ.

At the moment Raley leads the points race by hundreds, thus assuring he cannot lose the points race in this year's Finale. If we used the above formula in the future then the points leader still has to play well to win the Playoffs ( 2nd place points leader only has to beat the points leader by two places to leapfrog him). The chance for a player to move into the top ten (final 9 skins) is even more wide open.

This approach might open up the competition more than is obvious. The best players typically play tournaments and place tournaments over Leagues in priority (greater payouts, etc). When a points leader takes weekends off League play to go to tournaments (or fly across the country to their second home in California) they open up chances for others.

Justin Roggero    September 30, 2010 at 10:02pm

lmfao , dont smoke , g bummed you havent made it out here to throw at whitehall , i really would like to see what a "good" golfer would throw out there sense all of us on the "westside" s to much d at discing, bring a group of great golfers out here and we can have a little weekend of a west michigan showcase of our courses, not gonna lie there pretty ****ing nice , and my comments werent deleted i just relized this was for the finale not the summer league lol

g lane    September 30, 2010 at 9:57pm

all of this censorship is non cooperative. do you see what happens when you find a stranger in the alps? this is what happens, peter. this is what happens when you feed a stoner scrambled eggs.

Justin Roggero    September 30, 2010 at 9:45pm

foz straight up , you did a great thing for michigan disc golf , and the sport in general ay of commets which i see have been removed probably because of the choice of language, were not directed at you in any sort of way, you had to manage almost 800 people and try to throw somethig together in oe of the first years for this, you did an amazing job hands down , i really hope to be able to throw some with you soon , thanks for everything it was fun watching my numbers climb this year and motivation to get out more watching them fall lol thanks again

Foz Miller    September 30, 2010 at 9:02pm

Yeah OK - Points counting at this point all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Which is different for everyone - Hell look at the posts - we have a few different views - Ain't that GREAT!

Ok - So if you goal is to be in the Final 9 and your more than 150-200 points below the 10th highest person registered for the Grand Finale than your right - If that is someone's only motivation - stop playing now (joke). If your not registered and your ONLY MOTIVATION to be in the PS w ... more

Yeah OK - Points counting at this point all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Which is different for everyone - Hell look at the posts - we have a few different views - Ain't that GREAT!

Ok - So if you goal is to be in the Final 9 and your more than 150-200 points below the 10th highest person registered for the Grand Finale than your right - If that is someone's only motivation - stop playing now (joke). If your not registered and your ONLY MOTIVATION to be in the PS was to be in the Final 9 - than stop playing the points don't help. I doubt that is the case but I am sure there are a few that this was a biggie, to play the final 9 for added cash, in front of a crowd at this beautiful course.

What we are really discussing here is, What is a Final Event for a League Point Series? The dynamics of Leagues - A casual environment for both beginners and experience players to come together exchange information (technique, mind set, equipment...), experience a more competitive like environment than a casual round, and have a "blast" - which is a different "Blast" than a tournament environment. And have the oppertunity to do this week after week, same course, and many of the same faces.

I see much of the debate here between people who carry over the Tournament aspects into this League thing which if we look at the Leader board - 10% are die hard tournament players - 20-30 more play tournaments occasionally but the primary goal of this PS is to promote the sport and get more people to play more often - and 10-30% of the new players will move into the tournament play which helps tournaments increase but that is not a primary goal of this PS. But it's that 70-80% that we need to think first about because we know what the 10-30 like. If you figure out how to make the 70-80 happier, they will play more, they will bring their friends, they will tell their family, the media will pick up on the growth and hype and the local parks and business increase their involvement. And One day ESPN shows a Tournament at prime time - but that is not my motivation. I'd like to be able to go to play a league any day of the week at some course in the area and have a blast - I'm one of those 70-80 who likes to dream about being in that 10% but with my schedule, my back and a host of other factors I realize that the most important thing to me is to be able to escape to my walk in the park with a purpose and when I do this with some friends it is so much better and with leagues the group of friends has increased and you know when the stars aligned and I got an opportunity and I traveled I found other leagues and courses that were a "Blast" and getting better. The leagues I'm involved in helping to run are getting better because others players have been to leagues and that has increased this year. We actively talk in a cooperative manner about the different things that are done at different leagues. Ok I deviated down another topic...


So should the Final Event determine the Winner - It makes for more excitement. It could happen. But there are many factors. Without knowing how many players will registered we had to come up with several options and then detail these based on what plays out when reg closed. We could have had one large pool - mega points up for grabs. We could have had several pools at different courses with around 400 points per pool or we could have one pool that looks like another great league day with 168 points up fro grabs. People could have played every HLW and made sure they had two hot rounds every week if they were really worried about the points. People have choice and that is wonderful.

I played last night in the dark at the HLW because I wanted to play - the double points are nice but it was enough extra motivation for me and a good enough excuse for my wife to get me out of the house and play another round. It won't get me into the Final 9 - I just wanted to play a round with a bunch of friends - Don't get me wrong. I was happy to even add 4 points for just participation if that raises my point total and position on the leader board because I'm ecstatic to just be on the leader board and I'd like to be as high as I can be - on the leader board - because there is something about being able to say I played in the first MI state wide point series.

So I don't think anyone needs to have had played their final league round before they decide if they would like to attend. Everyone has their own reasons to why they would attend a final celebration of the season or play another round. If it's fun than you assess is this event fun enough for me to reg or not. If it's the Final 9 than you look at your points and decide based on who has registered to date. If it's money well if we had 200+ players it would have been there but now you'll have to wait to see how players vote by their registration next time unless we implement some other changes.

Joe I'm so happy you had fun - Your smile is the poster smile for what I hope we can achieve for everyone associated with the PS. I know I'm going to have a "Blast" when I see you at league round even if we don't get to kick footbag ever time. Thanks for the comments and the opportunity for me to try and express some of the different aspects of what we are trying to do and how this is different but built on many of the things that have been going on in the past so it really is hard to find a way to put a smile on everyone's face but with discussions like this we will get a bit closer.

See yeah Sunday for Double Fun! ;-)

Jeff Kaluk    September 30, 2010 at 8:17pm

Joe, Exciting is not the word.
Club Kensington Resurrection HLW (lets just call it a Semi Finals Event)
Sign in starts at 10am. First come first serve.
138 player max.
We will do a shot gun start so the first group in does not have to wait 1 1/2 hours for the last group to finish. This will also help alieve some back ups. Remember to keep a steady pace going. If you lose a disc, 3 minute rule is in effect. I am sure someone will find it (Andrew) and turn it in.
Please try and bring c ... more

Joe, Exciting is not the word.
Club Kensington Resurrection HLW (lets just call it a Semi Finals Event)
Sign in starts at 10am. First come first serve.
138 player max.
We will do a shot gun start so the first group in does not have to wait 1 1/2 hours for the last group to finish. This will also help alieve some back ups. Remember to keep a steady pace going. If you lose a disc, 3 minute rule is in effect. I am sure someone will find it (Andrew) and turn it in.
Please try and bring correct change. $5 entry, optional $2 ace pool, CTP's cost $1 a throw ($3/3 throw max), $2 pay to play if you dont have a bag tag, $5 park entry if you dont have a metro park pass. Im not a bank and if everyone brings a $20 for me to make change....it aint happening.
Post on the home page if you plan on comming so I have a better idea of what to expect.
Clearwater Discgolf.com is donating more swag just for this events CTP plus there is one spot up for grabs for the Finals event (non players pack entry).
WESTSIDERS!!! Come on out to a great course for a great time. Here is a cheep oppturnity to to make a few bucks and represent!! It would be great to have some of you show up.
NOTICE: CUT OFF IS 11:45 AM. EXPECT THIS ROUND TO LAST A LEAST 5 HOURS FOR 27 HOLES FROM LONGS!!! I HOPE TO HAVE EVERYTHING COMPLETED BY 6PM. DONT FORGET TO BRING LIQUIDS AND SNACKS. IT WILL BE A LONG AFTERNOON.
See you all Sunday!!

Joe Anttila    September 30, 2010 at 7:24pm

I'm probably misunderstanding, Foz. My thinking was that the final round at Indy would determine the 'winner' of the points series? So gaining points for the Final event creates incentive to attend the Kens HLW. Hypothetically, 'Maybe I'm way back in a points but if by chance I beat 138 players and those points double....then maybe I've got a shot being competitive overall at the final event. And since I'm on the bubble, I don't pre-reg because what th ... more

I'm probably misunderstanding, Foz. My thinking was that the final round at Indy would determine the 'winner' of the points series? So gaining points for the Final event creates incentive to attend the Kens HLW. Hypothetically, 'Maybe I'm way back in a points but if by chance I beat 138 players and those points double....then maybe I've got a shot being competitive overall at the final event. And since I'm on the bubble, I don't pre-reg because what the hell, I'm way back and my points from kensington wouldn't really count now cause I'm not reg'd...Maybe if the reg closed after the final league for points it creates more incentive to pre-reg. On the flip side, maybe that final league pushes some people out.' You guys have an excellent project going. I've had fun participating all summer! thanks dudes:-)!!!

Jon Steiner    September 30, 2010 at 6:51pm

I want to give a shout out to all the people that made this MiCPS happen .I've had so much fun and thats what it's all about!! It can only get better from here .Good luck to all who are in the final round/Grand finale .

Foz Miller    September 30, 2010 at 6:10pm

Joe - I'm glad you see this Sunday as something special; "Kensington HLW this Oct 3rd. Awesome that it creates incentive for the buddies to come to Kensington...."

Not sure what you mean by the Oct 3rd HLW does not count. If you mean toward getting paid out at the Grand Finale based on your final standing and you were unable to attend, then I guess I could see the comment that the HLW "really does not count". But I haven't seen to many players focused solely o ... more

Joe - I'm glad you see this Sunday as something special; "Kensington HLW this Oct 3rd. Awesome that it creates incentive for the buddies to come to Kensington...."

Not sure what you mean by the Oct 3rd HLW does not count. If you mean toward getting paid out at the Grand Finale based on your final standing and you were unable to attend, then I guess I could see the comment that the HLW "really does not count". But I haven't seen to many players focused solely on payouts based on points. They either want to be at the top of the leader board - MiCPS Champ for Summer 2010 or they want ammunition to razz a friend or they want to push to catch someone or some level as a way of measuring their improvement or progress and then there is that simple silly little excuse to get out to one more round, "I've got to this one is Double Points" and these are special rounds so maybe I'll see more friends, the "Buddies" factor as you point out and there may be something new and cool because it the Highlighted League of the Week.

Points mean different things to different people but for those who want to look back at the leader board and see how they did compared to others all over the state, every point could make a difference. Oh and there is another cool aspect if your points did not total up to really indicate your true ability, that is not your fault - Luck of the draw doubles, different league sizes, number of leagues in your area, and I bet you have a life that prevents you from playing as often as you like.... so many random and wild card like aspects could really affect your point total. It's like any other game, if you want to win you have to understand the rules, and what other players are doing, and bring that together with consistently more great rounds than good rounds and you have a shot at one of the top positions.

Points are still be accumulated by those playing any of the participating leagues, based on their schedule posted on DGS, until the final round at the Grand Finale.

This Sundays HLW at Kensington also has the potential of being the largest league round played in Michigan this summer - That is pretty cool and in my book that Counts

If I didn't get the point please help me so I can understand so all aspects are being evaluated.

Thanks Joe and I look forward to seeing you Sunday.